[slashnhax]

Without getting into the general discussion of this thread, I just want to point out that Clouse only uses movements that were made by a real person. So the mouse being "not human-like" isn't really a factor, because it is. The best argument I could see being made is that the bot doesn't have a perfect understand of the context of each movement and thus may occasionally apply an odd movement for the situation.

Would saying, the movements you make/the data in your .bio are used to determine which movements to use, be incorrect? Cause that's what I've assumed it does, but it's only an assumption xD

 

[frazboyz]

Complains about mouse being human, wants mouse to not be human, doesn't like bans, complains about mouse not being human.

What a vicious cycle!

 

[slashnhax]

Complains about mouse being human, wants mouse to not be human, doesn't like bans, complains about mouse not being human.

What a vicious cycle!

But what if the mouse was secretly a human?

 

[creativeself]

inb4 AI takeover

 

[derk]

Without getting into the general discussion of this thread, I just want to point out that Clouse only uses movements that were made by a real person. So the mouse being "not human-like" isn't really a factor, because it is. The best argument I could see being made is that the bot doesn't have a perfect understand of the context of each movement and thus may occasionally apply an odd movement for the situation.

The movements might be human, but those movements are absolutely not made by me. I have a different pattern, just like everyone else. If we implement personal patterns that Clouse later uses to bot with, we'd all have different patterns and thus making the bot even more safe. You would also get rid of the weird movements I wonder which tremor patient added to the patterns, which is a big bother to me, and to others too.

 

[aidden]

The movements might be human, but those movements are absolutely not made by me. I have a different pattern, just like everyone else. If we implement personal patterns that Clouse later uses to bot with, we'd all have different patterns and thus making the bot even more safe. You would also get rid of the weird movements I wonder which tremor patient added to the patterns, which is a big bother to me, and to others too.

iirc your bio files are used to select paths that are similar to your mouse movement style. So while they may not be yours, they are similar to the ones you've made.

 

[derk]

iirc your bio files are used to select paths that are similar to your mouse movement style. So while they may not be yours, they are similar to the ones you've made.

I've been told that they take all bio files from every player and compile a list of patterns of them they send back to us and that forms our mouse movements. It's more logical, because the mouse movements I have at the moment are patterns I never use, so I wonder where they come from then. And the fact that people have similar patterns would make it seem obvious that they're not quite personal.

 

[aidden]

I've been told that they take all bio files from every player and compile a list of patterns of them they send back to us and that forms our mouse movements. It's more logical, because the mouse movements I have at the moment are patterns I never use, so I wonder where they come from then. And the fact that people have similar patterns would make it seem obvious that they're not quite personal.

Not quite. As cloud said earlier, every movement is an actual recorded mouse movement, it isn't generated from bio files. The bio files are just used to filter the paths and help select one

 

[derk]

Not quite. As cloud said earlier, every movement is an actual recorded mouse movement, it isn't generated from bio files. The bio files are just used to filter the paths and help select one

The mouse movements are not from me though, and that's my major concern. I want personal mouse movements. I have no problem with path generating.

 

[kristiaan]

If everyone would use the client to bot and play legit then there wouldnt be any issue
I do everything in the client, if i want to play quest, merches etc...
I think that there still are many members, that bot on the client, and play legit in the RS client...

 

[cloud]

The mouse movements are not from me though, and that's my major concern. I want personal mouse movements. I have no problem with path generating.

So explain to me what would happen if someone were to play legit for x minutes and we were able to collect y movements. What happens as the bot approaches y interactions? Either movements would have to be reused which would vastly increase the detectability of them, or the bot must be stopped. With our current approach there's access to a nearly unlimited amount of actions that are constantly being replenished and replaced. Movements don't stay in the system long and because of how we use them it would be VERY hard for them to detect similarities in movements across accounts.

 

[derk]

So explain to me what would happen if someone were to play legit for x minutes and we were able to collect y movements. What happens as the bot approaches y interactions? Either movements would have to be reused which would vastly increase the detectability of them, or the bot must be stopped. With our current approach there's access to a nearly unlimited amount of actions that are constantly being replenished and replaced. Movements don't stay in the system long and because of how we use them it would be VERY hard for them to detect similarities in movements across accounts.

Y movements can be as large as you want to make them yourself. If you enlarge x time you enlarge y movements. This gives us the ability to build a very strong and personal antiban. I understand the problem with repeating patterns, but we can also keep adding new movements again and again to our own little database, making it more random every minute we play (legit).

And of course with it being an option to use, you don't have to use your own movements right from the start. You can build up the database while legitting, botting on the site using standard Clouse, and when you feel like you've gathered enough movements for your own Plouse (Personal Mouse xD ) you can start using that.

 

[viewer]

Y movements can be as large as you want to make them yourself. If you enlarge x time you enlarge y movements. This gives us the ability to build a very strong and personal antiban. I understand the problem with repeating patterns, but we can also keep adding new movements again and again to our own little database, making it more random every minute we play (legit).

And of course with it being an option to use, you don't have to use your own movements right from the start. You can build up the database while legitting, botting on the site using standard Clouse, and when you feel like you've gathered enough movements for your own Plouse (Personal Mouse xD ) you can start using that.

I think that it would be nice if bot could generate movements based on collected user data This way it wouldn't run out of possibilities

 

[derk]

I think that it would be nice if bot could generate movements based on collected user data This way it wouldn't run out of possibilities

Collected user data as in every player using the client legit or as in the local player?

 

[viewer]

Collected user data as in every player using the client legit or as in the local player?

At first I thought local player but then I realized that would be bad for a goldfarmer if all accounts play with a similar style, so yeah, every player using the client legit. Actually, Clouse is awesome, the only thing that annoys me is the out of context movements that happens sometimes, for example if I'm playing a minigame that requires agility like sorceress garden, if Clouse starts dancing all over the screen I'm screwed up. Honestly I don't know how we could control the amount of randomness for each context.

 

[derk]

At first I thought local player but then I realized that would be bad for a goldfarmer if all accounts play with a similar style, so yeah, every player using the client legit. Actually, Clouse is awesome, the only thing that annoys me is the out of context movements that happens sometimes, for example if I'm playing a minigame that requires agility like sorceress garden, if Clouse starts dancing all over the screen I'm screwed up. Honestly I don't know how we could control the amount of randomness for each context.

I'm not saying we should get rid of the original Clouse, but rather make a v2 version of it that only uses movements made by the local user. Clouse can still be used by goldfarmers/people who don't want to play legit to build their own movement database. I think it would suit both the mass user and the personal user.

 

[eagles13]

I think we should be fucking grateful for what we have, and be mindful of the fact that accounts don't get instabanned on this client, unlike others.

 

[derk]

I think we should be fucking grateful for what we have, and be mindful of the fact that accounts don't get instabanned on this client, unlike others.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, it's merely a suggestion >_> Again, I'm not suggesting to get rid of it, just an add-on to Clouse basically.

 

[philosobyte]

So explain to me what would happen if someone were to play legit for x minutes and we were able to collect y movements. What happens as the bot approaches y interactions? Either movements would have to be reused which would vastly increase the detectability of them, or the bot must be stopped. With our current approach there's access to a nearly unlimited amount of actions that are constantly being replenished and replaced. Movements don't stay in the system long and because of how we use them it would be VERY hard for them to detect similarities in movements across accounts.

When I was using Linux with the persistent mouse overlay bug, I often had the luxury of watching the mouse movements accumulate over the course of a few hours, testing my nature rune runner. When half an hour passes, the mouse trails form a coherent shape. Only as it reaches 1 hour does it get fuzzy. It takes 2 hours for the whole screen to fill with white from mouse trails so it's just a big blob.

Unless Clouse has been revised (or naturally improved through a more massive user base) between seven months ago and now, movements are already reused often.

The staircase pattern that Viewer mentioned was present. The "dip low and come back up in a nearly straight vertical line" movement was used for 50% of clicking on a bank chest. Another awkward loop/timing was used, like, 80% of the time for clicking on the nature altar, etc. Only occasionally is a random movement thrown in which I haven't seen before. Otherwise the same ten or so movements were exclusively reused throughout the few weeks that I was developing. And they're very different from the straight movements that I personally employ.

If Bertrand's idea were to be implemented, I think that the common database should be the default, and a player-exclusive (or character-exclusive) movement database would be an excellent alternative option for those willing to invest the time.

edit: I don't think a limited amount of movements is a problem because you'd think that hard-core players don't vary their mouse movements alot - stretching and compressing those few movements would probably be enough. I believe the bane of bots comes in widespread use of the same patterns by many people. When one person has his own patterns not shared by anyone else, how diverse his own patterns are doesn't matter as much.

 

[derk]

When I was using Linux with the persistent mouse overlay bug, I often had the luxury of watching the mouse movements accumulate over the course of a few hours, testing my nature rune runner. When half an hour passes, the mouse trails form a coherent shape. Only as it reaches 1 hour does it get fuzzy. It takes 2 hours for the whole screen to fill with white from mouse trails so it's just a big blob.

Unless Clouse has been revised (or naturally improved through a more massive user base) between seven months ago and now, movements are already reused often.

The staircase pattern that Viewer mentioned was present. The "dip low and come back up in a nearly straight vertical line" movement was used for 50% of clicking on a bank chest. The same awkward loop/timing was used, like, 80% of the time for clicking on the nature altar, etc. Only occasionally is a random movement thrown in which I haven't seen before. Otherwise the same ten or so movements were exclusively reused throughout the few weeks that I was developing. And they're very different from the straight movements that I personally employ.

If Bertrand's idea were to be implemented, I think that the common database should be the default, and a player-exclusive (or character-exclusive) movement database would be an excellent alternative option for those who are willing to invest the time.

Spot on.