[dogdogdogdog]

Hey all,

Wanted to start off by saying I truly appreciate all developers putting in so much time making/fixing bots.
I'm close to maxing and ~75% of that is thanks to perfect bots and support. Thanks so much for continuously putting out bots that are requested and listening to customers wants and needs!

I do have a question though. Over the last approx. 2 months a lot of new and existing bots have gotten direct input (DI). It used to be all mouse clicks, which -in my opinion- is a more "human" way of botting.
I might be wrong but i believe DI changes the outgoing packets in a very non-human way. So just too good to be true. I understand we have to use this with caution, but I feel like risks have to be addressed a little better.

If Jagex catches on to certain patterns in the "new type of botting" (tick perfect tick manipulation when skilling, prayer flicking, etc) I truly believe we will see a huge ban wave. I don't know if this kind of information is stored by Jagex but if so, they could also ban people that have used DI months ago right?
Sirpugger released a video 2 days ago where he got tipped off about bots using direct input. If a bot-busting youtuber knows, so does Jagex. I even believe the bots used in the video are bots from this platform.

So my question to staff and developers: don't you think we should slow down on the whole DI hype? I know it attracts a lot of new users and it is considered safe for now (we have not seen a lot of bans), but once Jagex starts noticing and detecting these bots through patterns in packets, those users will all be gone within a heartbeat to clients where botting is safer. I believe most of us would rather have SAFE bots that will last you months if not years of botting, rather than a little more efficiency with much higher ban risk.
A bot failing a tick cycle every once in a while makes it so much more human. No one can do 100% perfect tick cycle clicks for an hour straight.

Not trying to raise any alarms, piss anyone off, or spread conspiracy theories. I just feel like we need a bit more transperancy and clarification on this.

Thanks!

 

[slashnhax]

I don't believe DI technically changes packets at all, as far as packets are concerned they're exactly the same as normal interaction, so in terms of patterns in packets, it'd probably be the same as tick perfect interaction using a hopping mouse.
The client does have a big warning pop up saying that it could carry more risk, and even with DI it's possible to have a mistimed interaction (due to tick health, or intentionally doing so e.g. a range of interactions per tick instead of the max 8 or 9).
Personally I like to have an option in my bots to allow users to not use DI if they don't want to, even if it's selected in the client.

 

[dogdogdogdog]

I don't believe DI technically changes packets at all, as far as packets are concerned they're exactly the same as normal interaction, so in terms of patterns in packets, it'd probably be the same as tick perfect interaction using a hopping mouse.
The client does have a big warning pop up saying that it could carry more risk, and even with DI it's possible to have a mistimed interaction (due to tick health, or intentionally doing so e.g. a range of interactions per tick instead of the max 8 or 9).
Personally I like to have an option in my bots to allow users to not use DI if they don't want to, even if it's selected in the client.

Thanks for clarifying, devs have just way more knowledge about this stuff than us users.
Also please understand I'm not hating on DI at all, I do use them myself just very limited compared to "normal" bots.
And thanks for adding the option, love your work!

 

[cuppajava]

Yeah, I agree with what Slash mentioned. It is usually optional (or even if it's required for a bot, you could just not use that bot if you're uncomfortable with it).

So just too good to be true. I understand we have to use this with caution, but I feel like risks have to be addressed a little better.

Yes and no, honestly. For whatever reason, I've never really seen "ban waves" effect Runemate like a lot of other clients. I mean people get banned using Runemate sometimes (although waaay less often the past ~1 year), but "everyone suddenly getting banned at once" just isn't something I've ever seen discussed at Runemate. Which isn't to say it's impossible, just that it would be a pretty novel thing to happen here.

That being said, pretty much all bans I've seen on Runemate come within 0-10 days after botting; I don't know if I've ever heard someone on Runemate say "I used Runemate last a month ago and just got banned". So I'm fairly confident the people who botted & stopped (whether or not they used DI) are safe. Unless Jagex is planning some monumental bot nuke, which I guess is always possible.

This is speculation of course.

If Jagex catches on to certain patterns in the "new type of botting" (tick perfect tick manipulation when skilling, prayer flicking, etc) I truly believe we will see a huge ban wave.

It's not a new type of botting. Other clients have used it or similar tech for years; Clients exist that *only* use similar tech, no mouse at all. And the fact that they still exist at all indicates it's not some immediate flag.

Sirpugger released a video 2 days ago where he got tipped off about bots using direct input. If a bot-busting youtuber knows, so does Jagex. I even believe the bots used in the video are bots from this platform.

This clip wasn't DirectInput or similar tech; I'm 99% sure the bank window would have been flickering if it was DirectInput. The clip was a packet bot which is different. Also again, both packet bots & similar tech to DI have been used for years; It's not actually novel despite SirPugger framing it like it is.

don't you think we should slow down on the whole DI hype?

I guess it's just hard to be too concerned when we've seen no evidence of increased risk (yet?). Personally I've been using DI for 1600 CG KC, every night for over a month without ban. Jagex either doesn't know, doesn't care, or is planning something "monumental" like we've never seen before in OSRS, but yeah.

If you're concerned about the possible risk, as always, it's up to the individual to just not use that specific bot, or not bot at all. Everyone has their theories and superstitions about botting (I mean there's certain types of bots I'm not comfortable using, but other people use them successfully). So it's all fair for people to have their own comfort levels for their accounts. But DI makes some things possible that just wouldn't be possible otherwise.

Also just as an aside, DI doesn't inherently mean the bot is "tick perfect" or "completely consistent". For example I only use DI for prayers & movement in the hunllef fight, just to make clicks more reliable & quick. But the underlying logic still has it's delays and randomness and "humanization". It just means the bot doesn't rely on unreliable mouse movements.

Long reply, just lots of thoughts haha.

 

[dogdogdogdog]

Thanks a lot for your reply Cuppa, really cleared things up for me and I'm sure for a lot of other users as well.
Us users generally don't have knowledge of how things work "behind the scenes" with for example packets (what Jagex sees/receives)
Again, I'm not hating on DI at all -I've been using it myself at some places- just felt like it was here out of nowhere with no context for us non-dev noobs lol.
Your post sure clarified some things for me, thanks again!

 

[her0]

But DI makes some things possible that just wouldn't be possible otherwise.

Maybe i'm interpreting this incorrectly, but are you saying this in terms of how the bots are developed it doesn't make it possible to develop them any other way, or in relation to the type of input it produces? As in are we talking inhuman reaction with clicks/input?

 

[swych]

Maybe i'm interpreting this incorrectly, but are you saying this in terms of how the bots are developed it doesn't make it possible to develop them any other way, or in relation to the type of input it produces? As in are we talking inhuman reaction with clicks/input?

Not that you asked me, but I thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Part of what you said is right yeah, inhuman reaction speeds are a thing for sure. Direct Input has the ability to instantly interact with something with a single-digit millisecond response time and 100% accuracy, so that's something. Things like 100% accurate prayer flicking, perfect woox walking, and guaranteed actions per tick (such as attaching feathers to dart tips) 8 times per second, are all things that the introduction of Direct Input has aided. Can these things have been done before? Sure, but not with the same reliability and consistency. Coupled with bots typically doing other actions such as fighting npcs, eating, etc that would have previously interrupted prayer flicking, but DI doesn't need to use the mouse, it can be done asynchronously from other actions.

 

[cuppajava]

Maybe i'm interpreting this incorrectly, but are you saying this in terms of how the bots are developed it doesn't make it possible to develop them any other way, or in relation to the type of input it produces? As in are we talking inhuman reaction with clicks/input?

Just to add on to Swych's answer, yes DirectInput makes inhuman reaction possible in a way that regular mouse movement doesn't. But DirectInput doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's inhuman mouse accuracy/speed; For example in corrupted gauntlet I still have "human like" delays and idle times and whatnot, it's not like every action is instant after the last one.

So DirectInput means that instant reaction is possible, but most bots using it will still have humanization of some sort so that it's not going too insane (though some bots may it's possible for some bots to do insane stuff like 8 actions in a tick consistently making darts or something).

 

[oogle]

Just to add on to Swych's answer, yes DirectInput makes inhuman reaction possible in a way that regular mouse movement doesn't. But DirectInput doesn't NECESSARILY mean it's inhuman mouse accuracy/speed; For example in corrupted gauntlet I still have "human like" delays and idle times and whatnot, it's not like every action is instant after the last one.

So DirectInput means that instant reaction is possible, but most bots using it will still have humanization of some sort so that it's not going too insane (though some bots may do insane stuff like 8 actions in a tick consistently making darts or something).

Mine doesn't if you're referring to the dart fletcher. I have delays inbetween to make it seem as human as possible, sometimes it will only make 2 ticks, its to count as a human error which will throw Jagex off. I do not claim the bot to do 8 actions per tick on it.

The max actions it can do is 4 per tick rather than 8, this is to keep the ban rates down dring the time of my bot and never will you ever get b2b2b 4 tick actions.

 

[cuppajava]

Mine doesn't if you're referring to the dart fletcher.

I wasn't specifically referring to yours, I only mentioned 8 action dart fletching as it was a possible example Swych mentioned

I have delays inbetween to make it seem as human as possible, sometimes it will only make 2 ticks, its to count as a human error which will throw Jagex off.

The max actions it can do is 4 per tick rather than 8, this is to keep the ban rates down dring the time of my bot and never will you ever get b2b2b 4 tick actions.

But yeah, that makes sense & sounds like a good design to me